Plum Crazy

Can you say "power structure"? When whites, who are the class in power, insult POC, it's a very different dynamic. There's an implied threat, because the white person does actually still have more power in society than the POC.

If we lived in a world where people were not discriminated against because of their race and/or gender, then, yes, there'd be a double standard. However, as whites have more power, no. With power comes responsibility. It's really quite unfair to expect POC to not have the same amount of power but the same amount of responsibility.

For anyone white who might be tempted to argue that he/she doesn't have a lot of individual power in this society, let me also point out the benefits and privileges you get simply for being white. You don't have to worry about the NYPD shooting you if you're unarmed. You don't have to worry about being pulled over by the police because you're driving a nice car. You don't have to worry that emergency services won't respond to a call in a predominantly white neighborhood. People won't judge you as being lazy without knowing any more about you than your skin color.

If the worst thing you have to worry about vis a vis your race is that if you're rich and famous and say something racist, you'll be roasted by the media and fired, you really don't have a lot to complain about.

Two questions.

After reading the article about Steve Lyons, do you feel what he said merited being fired?

Do you feel what Michael Irvin said merits him being fired? If not, what's the appropriate form of punishment for him (and Lyons)?

Ok, that was three questions.

We strongly disagree on this one. The reason why I asked if you feel that Michael Irvin merits being fired is that it sounds like you're saying that minorities, as not the class in power, can say whatever they want without fear of repercussion. I don't know if you're actually saying that, thus my question to you.

Someone like Michael Irvin does have power. He has a public stage in which to express his views. He is rich and privileged. With all that comes a responsibility to censor what he says and not make racist remarks.

Racism is racism, no matter who's behind it, no matter whether that person comes from a privileged class or the class in power. If Steve Lyons got fired, then Michael Irvin should be equally accountable.

I certainly never said that anyone of any sort can say whatever they want without fear of repercussion. However, I do not agree that the impact of what Lyons said and what Irvin said are anything like the same.

Lyons - Clearly made fun of Spanish speakers and made a "joke" that relied on the stereotype of Hispanics as criminals. In the real world, there are a lot of people who believe that Hispanics are predisposed towards criminality. Impact of this stereotype - Hispanics routinely get denied decent places to live, because whites are afraid to rent to them. Hispanics are denied jobs. Hispanics are denied the same educational access. Etc., etc., and so forth.

Irvin - Effectively said "White men can't jump". In the real world, a lot of people do think white men can't jump. Impact of this stereotype - Pretty much non-existent. No whites are denied places to live as a result. No whites are denied jobs as a result. No whites are denied access to education as a result.

This is what I mean by the difference in power structure. Lyons' statement reinforces a stereotype that has real world negative impact on Hispanics. Irvin's statement reinforces a stereotype that has virtually no negative impact on whites.

Further, let's talk about the huge difference between what Jimmy the Greek said and what Michael Irvin said. We won't even discuss Al Campanis, because if it isn't clear to you that what Campanis' said is worlds worse than anything said by Irvin, I don't know what to say. Campanis basically said blacks are inferior to whites, full stop.

Anyway, Jimmy the Greek effectively said that blacks were bred for strength. This is wrong on so many levels. First, it compares blacks to livestock. Second, it implies that the only thing blacks are good for are things that require strength. Given our cultural stereotypes of strong people as being dumb (dumb muscle-bound guy), this would mean to a lot of people that blacks were not good for things that require intelligence. Consider the real world impact of that stereotype on blacks.

Irvin did not say that blacks were bred for strength. He implied that blacks were genetically more athletic than whites (although he did NOT say that the only way a white could be athletic was to have black genes; he actually specifically said there were other ways). He said this as a black man as a point of pride. That is not what Jimmy the Greek did at all. Firstly, athletic is not the same as strong. Secondly, Jimmy the Greek didn't say what he said as a point of pride. There are so few things that whites let recognize blacks feel pride in, given our negative stereotypes of and the discrimination against them. Must we insist on taking dismissing anything a black person might reasonably be proud of away?

My last point would be that even if you're 100% right that this is a double standard and it's some kind of injustice for Irvin not to face the same punishment as Lyons, so what? On the scale of injustices committed, what is this? Add up all the double standards that whites benefit from. Then move that line whatever little microcosm this particular alleged injustice might move it, and tell me how much does it tip the scales towards POC? Really, is it even noticeable? Given the immense privileges that whites get at the expense of POC, how much time should anyone spend worrying about this? I'd rather spend my time tearing down the huge effing mountain, not the little baby molehill.

Lesley: I've updated my comment because I realized what a horrifically patronizing and privileged jerk I sounded like. Whites don't let POC do anything. We do, however, continuously demean and dismiss things that POC do and refuse to acknowledge their achievements and accomplishments and just general humanity. Not surprisingly, this can have a very negative effect on POC, making them feel like there is nothing they can feel proud of. The words in italics above are those I would just as soon strike out, and the words in bold are how I would reword my comment. However, I didn't want to erase the history of my privilege.