Plum Crazy

Lesley,

Well there you go again being tool for the left wing, don't you know that in order to secure our freedom we must put limits on liberty and who better to do that then a president who was personally anointed by Jesus, or was it John Ashcroft, I get the two confused.

In all seriousness, I want to wish you, Jon, and the entire Plum clan a Happy Chanukah and many happy returns in the New Year.

I don't think the spying is clearly illegal. No let me rephrase that. I don't think the courts will find this activity illegal. Carter issued an executive order granting the attorny general the ability to order wiretaps without a court order. Clintin signed a similar executive order authorizin searches without a court order.

I suspect that since 7 of the last ten presidents were republicans they have signed or used similar executive orders, but since it is primarily democrats protesting the MSM is reporting democrat presidents use of similar actions.

Should it be legal? Clearly not. If national security is a concern and it is the president calling I think it pretty clear that a judge would grant an order allowing these searches. If it isn't national security why the hell would the whitehouse be interested?

With respect to both Carter's and Clinton's executive orders, they complied with FISA. Carter did authorize the AG to approve electronic surveillance without a court order, "but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section." The section in question, 1802 (a) (1), states:

(a)
(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that�
(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at�
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign powers, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title;
(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and
© the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title; and
if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately.

In other words, Carter authorized the AG to only carry out these warrantless wiretaps against non-US citizens.

Clinton authorized physical searches without a warrant, but also included the "if the Attorney General makes the certifications
required by that section." language. In this case, the section is 1822 (a) (1), which states:

(a) Presidential authorization
(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the President, acting through the Attorney General, may authorize physical searches without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year if�
(A) the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that�
(i) the physical search is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers (as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title);
(ii) there is no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person; and
(iii) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such physical search meet the definition of minimization procedures under paragraphs (1) through (4) [1] of section 1821 (4) of this title; and
(B) the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate at least 30 days before their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines that immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately.

Again, only authorizing against non-US citizens.

We can argue whether even that should be illegal, but it is not and was not. Bush, however, authorized warrantless wiretaps against US citizens, which is clearly illegal under the law.

Thanks, Rick! And a happy belated Winter Solstice to you!

This President can't even spell constitution and you want him to be faithful to it?

I still think he's headed for the big I.

Maybe we should be a little more discriminate the next time around so we don't elect a thief, rapist or warmonger.. but I suppose that's being a little too optimistic.